ivyblossom | Four Spaces

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Four Spaces

Once again, I need to preface this by saying I have no idea what I'm talking about. Not one single idea. I just bumble around in the dark and once in a while I imagine that I have an idea about what's in front of me. But it's probably just the result of too many pringles. So take all this with a grain of salt.

I've been thinking about this one for a while.

In order to tell one story, I've determined that I need four spaces. These spaces are sometimes physical (or digital), but sometimes they're metaphorical. In order for something to grow, be cultivated, and, you know, "cook", you need to have a space to put it in. If you want it to grow in particular ways (say, if you're like me and it doesn't all spring fully-formed from your skull), you need to give the story different kinds of spaces to grow in. So far I have identified four separate spaces that have proved useful to me. Insofar as I know what I'm talking about which, again, is questionable.

1. Meta Blather
I've said this before, but let me reiterate: I find that I need to talk about the story for a while first. Scene by scene, characters, little details, the whole thing. No restrictions whatsoever. Just a sea of words. Not actual writing per se. Nothing that could be copy/pasted (or, in my case, copied out). In fact, this space barely allows for that. In this space, the narrator is really me, and the story is a construction. There is room there for things to happen in other ways, for characters to be out of character. Thinking about it this way helps me to avoid getting locked into one idea, or from thinking about a character only one way. Because it's not a fnished space, it's a dynamic space.

truepenny recently expressed so beautifully, it's important to know what every character's motivation is, even if you don't ever express that in the text. As she said,

Making them behave out of character is a kind of deliberate humiliation--and doing it unintentionally is almost worse, because it signals very clearly that I didn't care enough to pay attention to them, to understand what they would and would not do. And characters deserve that kind of dignity, that integrity.

That post really spoke to me, and made me think about meta space and how I'm currently using it. I really can't keep multiple characters in my head at once. I can keep parts of them in my head, but not every piece of them, not all the time. Not every moment of a character, over months, over years; not his backstory and his future all at once, along with his particular reaction in the time and place of a particular scene. For me, it's all uncertain until I write it down (and even sometimes uncertain after that). Writing down ideas about a character, fleshing out his backstory and trailing him along into his future, helps me to place him in a scene a little easier. I've already planted the ideas about his character, I've let it stew a little, so when I go to write him in a scene I have a better grasp of him. He has some history in my head. The same is true for scenes, or settings, or plot elements. I think I'm going to end up spending a lot more time considering meta space, because the more I look at it the more important it seems. I think this is one of the most wonderful things about fandom; it's one great big giant meta blather space. Since I have no more fandom and my characters only live in my own head (well, okay, in

joyouschild's head and

boniblithe's head too), I keep my meta blather (mostly) in my moleskine.

2. Reference
At the very beginning of my current project, I had no idea how to begin. I had a few ideas, but no structure. So the first thing I did was went looking for a piece of software that would let me just store ideas. I wanted something beyond a notebook or a word document. I wanted something that expected to be a set of shorter ideas; basically, digital cue cards. I found Idea Knot, which does what I needed it to do. It lets me create custom "groups" of ideas, and I can put one idea in multiple groups. So that helps me get rid of the structure of a page or a word doc.

I use this space for constructing a plot, but the longer I use it the more I realize that it's better characterized as a reference tool. I'm creating my own reference source to refer back to later on, while I'm deep in the writing; reference for the events and the order they're going in, but also for the characters, details, background, politics, and so forth. The meta blather contains a lot of that too, but that's a lot more more fluid than this; the reference space is more of a repository of ideas I'm more or less committed to using. Ideas that have passed through the first kiln and are ready for the next one. They may be rearranged or altered, but they're a bit more mature than what's going on in the meta stage.

When I first started working on this project, I spent about two or three months working on my reference source. Even about halfway through I felt like I had too much stuff, and it took a while before it started to congeal into some sort of form. It was a bit scary, to be honest with you. But in retrospect, it was all leading somewhere, and to this day I can't really write anything without having the reference open. Now it's like a safety blanket; all the major ideas are in there, the chapter summaries, the character sketches (I even wrote out the answers to ten questions to ask your characters, and that was more useful than I expected), everything.

3. The Stage
This is the obvious space. The manuscript itself. I used to think this was the whole thing; that if you were working on a story this is where you were. I was always that girl who didn't believe in outlines. Yeah, I've eaten my words now; now I have so many outlines I probably have five times more text outside of the stage than on it. And you know, i don't see that changing when (if?) I ever get finished with the story I'm currently working on. I think these things are necessary. For me at least.

With my meta blather on going (I have yet to stop metablathering, 8 chapters in), and my reference source doesn't feel complete yet either. I go back and forth; sometimes I don't add to the reference source for weeks. But then, like the last week or so, I only add to the reference source, leaving the stage completely alone until I know a whole other set of facts.

I've also discovered that the stage gets layered. I thought I was the sort of person who just wrote in one go (that was how I did fanfiction anyway, and looking back, boy is that obvious. Ever want to see a non-existent ending? Go look at some of my fanfiction. I just stopped, I didn't write endings!). What I've discovered lately is that I tend to write dialogue first, and then chunks of action, and then even larger chunks of description. And then, long afterward, I write in reactions. How about that. I can't let any characters react until days, weeks, or months later. Introspection seems to be my last stage. I'm currently putting placeholders in my manuscript for the introspective/reaction scenes. Everything is going to get longer in editing because of this layered approach. I'm not saying I like it, but I'm noticing that I'm doing it. Maybe this is something I need another space to fix? I don't know!

4. Alt Scenes
Here's something I've only come to embrace recently. For a long time I behaved as if I only had so many words in me; I could only write so much in my lifetime, so I had to make every word count. What's the point of writing something that's never going to appear anywhere? Perhaps this is why I balked at the idea of outlines and summaries. I wanted to get to the juicy bits, the important bits. But I've done a 360 on that one. Now I probably write way too much extra stuff. And hence the alternate scenes.

I've found it very interesting to write alternate scenes, though mostly they're extra scenes. I have developed a rule about these; because they are explicitly not meant to go onto the stage, I write them from a different perspective than my stage text. For instance; my current project is (boringly) a third person limited narrator. For alt scenes, I write in first person. (I could write them in second person too, just to satisfy my own glee for writing in second person, but you see what I mean.) Sometimes I write literal alt scenes, stuff that just happens not to go on the stage, but actually happens behind the scenes. (Stuff that would ordinarily be classed as NC-17, or whatever the kids are calling it nowadays, I would probably write as an alt scene just for the satisfaction of having written it.) But I've also written lots of scenes that don't fit into the story as I end up writing it at all, and these are what I think are most valuable. The test runs.

Sometimes, particularly early on in the story, I find myself concerned over particular issues. In my case, I worried about certain relevations, or certain ethical situations, or how characters will react in scenarios I imagine coming up. I resisted exploring these at first, again, feeling that I should spend my time on "productive" writing rather than admitedly "useless" stuff. But after a while I started writing them, and in the process I learned a lot about the characters. I'm lucky enough to have beta readers who are willing to look at the alt scenes and give me feedback on them, too. Not necessarily the style, but the ideas, the reactions. I think alt scenes are a narrative version of the meta blather, but it makes me feel closer to the characters. It feels like a trial run. It's a way, as

truepenny pointed out, to retain the dignity of the characters by letting them on a back stage first.

I've spent a lot of time at work talking about software and metaphor; finding the metaphor of the software you're trying to learn is half the battle to using it well. What does it think it is? If you know what software thinks it is, you'll be able to better take a stab at guessing not only how to use it, but what it can do. What I've come to understand recently is that I need to think about those metaphors in my own writing as well; the tyranny of the .doc is a real thing. If I put something on a word doc, that means something different than my scrawled blather in my moleskine or the alt scenes I keep in my plotting software. That blank page in Word makes me feel like whatever goes on there is permanent; there's something very bold and certain about it. It was a neat idea to make Word actually look like you were typing directly onto a piece of paper, but I find that metaphor restrictive; it's too easy to picture it just like that. I was amazed at how differently I felt when I stopped using Word to write and started using Avenir. This is a piece of software that presumes that you're working on something, and lets you add annotations. Just that shift in metaphor helped me to feel a little more relaxed about the writing process. For the first time (the first time EVER), I feel like I'm witing a draft. I add notes inside the documents, I leave spaces for scenes to come. I go back and add annotations to the passages I want to edit, or bookmark spaces where additional scenes will go in (as soon as I figure out what exactly those scenes will be about). My software helps me create a new metaphor.

I had no idea, when I started back to writing back in 2001, that I had so many ideas in my head that needed to be dismantled. I learn more about writing every day.

Maybe one day I'll feel that I can stop with the disclaimers. But that's not going to be anytime soon.

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This.

This post is incredibly illuminating.

Thank you.

I'm so honoured that it deserved a frottage icon. Unless that's your default, but don't tell me if it is, I like the idea of a writing post deserving a frottage icon.

And I don't really know if this is illuminating generally, but I'm glad if you found it to be. I don't know if my experiences translate, that's the thing. I'm not even sure if my experience is going to result in anything worth reading, but I'm trying to learn. :)

You have managed to put my instinct into words, and it helps to see it spelled out. Thank you.

Oh really? Do you find these things to be true? Cool! I've reached the point where I'm not sure if these things make sense to anyone but me. :)

Yes. I've found myself explaining to family and friends that I'm very much working on my 'in-process novel' even when I don't have a word count to back it up. I spend a lot of time mulling it about on the 'back-burner' so to say or Meta Blather as you put it. Then I'll put a phase of words onto paper, and then I'll go back to thinking it over again. To see what I've done, take a long look at it and see where it's going. In a way, to be inspired by what I've written and growing it from there.

Stories don't come full-born from my brain, and characters especially want more attention and want me to know them better than I can discover in a marathon of simply sitting at the keyboard typing out words.

Recently, I've decided that what I want to do for the present is write scenes about this or that, always developing and understanding the story better in past/present/future contexts--but acknowledging that probably 100% of what I'm writing will never be shared. I've found that this is also hard to explain to other people... but here you call it Alt Scenes. Exactly! It needs to be written, filed, and made a Reference.

I'd simply given it up to saying, "This is just how I do writing. And I like it this way." I'm intrigued to hear that it isn't so uncommon and I like how you call these stages of artistic creation: 'spaces.' I think I'm going to try defining it as such to my friends and families and see if they file this away as 'artistic oddity' and not 'Jillian's a slacker with nothing to show for her work.' :D

Yeah, seems like you stumbled on all this pretty naturally. Up until about three days ago I have three spaces for writing; it wasn't until very recently that I accepted that alt scenes are a totally legitimate "space" that critical process happens inside. I was writing them, but I felt uncertain about them, as though writing them was sort of frivolous. It was really only as I started thinking about this post that I realized that that process was important, and that maybe I should be writing more of them.

It's great to hear about your process, thanks so much for sharing it with me.

I couldn't express how much I like your posts about writing. It helps me understand my own approach and find the logic behind it. It is so, so helpful. Thank you!

Excellent! I would like to read about your approach too!

*is awed*

*is so not a writer*

What, you don't feel any urge to micromanage, document, and obsess about every inch of your process? Ha!

Hee! No, you misunderstand me. I don't have a process, because I am, literally, not a writer.

I can, you know, spot spelling errors and shaky grammar and wonky punctuation. I can supply synonyms for "hung over". I can even, in direst circumstances (and with a minimum of eye rolling) point out the difference between "than" and "then". But this--this process you have elucidated is, if you will excuse the expression, a closed book to me.

Ahhh how wonderful. You are one of the blessed tribe of the beta readers, then? I love nothing more than a good editor. And, quite honestly, this process business is a pretty closed book to me too most of the time. Hence my attempts at reading about it and learning about it, and documenting my progress, really. It's a lot more involved than you'd think, isn't it. I thought this witing thing was just about sitting down and writing, but sadly, apparently it is not. Unless you're Stephen King.

Oh, no, no, not a beta reader--well, not for years, and never on this forum. I do occasionally help out a friend who writes a newsletter, and I fume over my small town's weekly (yes, weekly) newspaper. That's about it, really.

And--not to damn you with faint praise or anything--you're a much better writer than Mr. King.

Ahh you are kind. My goal is to write one story that works. When I achieve that goal, I will be most pleased with myself. I'm working on it. :)

i've been contemplating saving up for a mac JUST to write in it. my friend, her apple's small, and the word doc's can still be situated side by side, which i can't do on my sony vaio. and i'm so pissed there's nothing like the avenir for pc. PISSED.

for me, i get endings or climaxes first, and then the rest of the story builds up to it, and i don't say a peep about what i'm doing, because if i do, i won't finish it, hands down. i'll shut up now. that frustrates me, though, to no end.

moleskines are LOVE.

That''s really interesting. If the endings comes first, do you write the endings first? Or do you sort it all out and their write it from beginning to end?

And there's GOT to be something for PC. SURELY! I haven't looked around, but....someone must have written something interesting for PC...

And moleskines: agreed. I'm kind of addicted to them. I buy them all the time and so far I've given one to my father, my boss, my best friend, the tech guy at work, and this really outstanding guy I met at work who I think is the shiniest, coolest human being on the planet. They all exhibited a need and I couldn't help it. Giving them away brings me as much joy as writing in them, strangely.

i write the endings first, if the story is huge, otherwise i build up to it if it's less than ten pages.

moleskines, they just write like, oh.

So glad you posted this. My stories always come to me in scenes and that's why thus far I haven't written anything that I haven't been compelled to. (For class, since I obviously didn't want to flunk school.) It's frustrating, because it's all so hard to get straight.

Oh, I know what you mean. The organization is a skill to hone just as much as the actual writing is, it seems to me. I've certainly spent more time on the organization than the actual writing, which may be obvious by the end, I dunno. But personally I'm impressed by software that anticipates the idea of random scenes coming to you, because I can't tell you how exciting it was when I could start slotting random scenes into some kind of order and seeing a story emerge that I didn't pressure into existence.

I guess this whole post is a rant about Word, isn't it. Not really fair, but I found that moving away from it and into something that was more accepting of disorder really helped my process. (So far.)

You know what I've said directly about this post, and all your talk about writing, but in general, it is how your explorations give me permission that's striking me the hardest... giving permission is that enabling catalytic act that gets you over the hump. I'll still never micromanage or obsess... I have academic writing to do that with. But now when I see writing like making pizza in the kitchen it WILL be less of a mysterious act than a well prepared performance of apparently random acts and decisions as the chaotic search for order and completeness predicated on the intersection of the ad libbing of a well planned scenario.

Now see what you've started?

I never thought I'd see the day.

I'm merely thick and slow. All else is in the process of becoming.

That's nicely put! It also carries some great clout for people like me who tend to perfectionize to the point of stupidity. "For a long time I behaved as if I only had so many words in me; I could only write so much in my lifetime, so I had to make every word count." That's where I am now. So today, you're my Buddha: giving me a view of an afterlife where *gasp* I can write for the fun of it! Thanks :)

Hey, no problem! I'm still working it out myself, obviously. Every time I sit down to post something like this it feels like I'm stating the incredibly obviously that I just completely failed to notice for the first 30 years of my life. Nice to know I'm not the only one!

Not at all! And 'obvious' has always been for people who already see it. Doesn't make it any less of a revelation for the clarity challenged. Besides, I think earning a point of view is the worthier part.

Oooo I like this idea, earning a point of view. That's a good one. :)

Hehe, thanks. But you still get many more points for your Four Spaces thingie.

I love all your posts about writing. They're so illuminating.

Quick question: I'm assuming you're using a MAC? I'm interested in acquiring a program like Avenir, but I use IBM/Windows/thing. Would you happen to know of a similar program that I could use?

I really don't know, but I'm sure there are such things. I really spent quite a lot of time trying out different pieces of software and seeing which one was right for me. I have a PC at work, but I don't do writing on it, so I'm not sure. I'd be very curious to hear more about what writing software PC users use, actually. Maybe we can drum up some reviews!

Thank you for writing this. I have 2 unfinished multi-chapters and 3 unfinished one-shots, plus there's another story line in my head (read: favorite fantasy) that I think is cliche in a way, yet it won't leave me alone and I may have to write it down to get it to shut up. Anyway, I'm going to embrace the layered writing technique you described. I was already kind of doing it, but not in a truly unfettered fashion. I think if I go with it, it will help me finish my one-shots at least. Thanks again, M.

Once I started writing that bit I thought, "this is a totally other post". Maybe I'll write more about that kind of thing shortly. I'm still really (really) preliminary in my thinking about that. But even thinking about alternate methods is, I think, a good thing; at least we're aware that there are different methods and maybe we can try something new. Cheers!

This is very interesting. I'm also intrigued by the idea of software which can be helpful with writing. I noticed both of the programs you linked to look very useful, but cost money. I was wondering if you know of any good free software?

Well, I haven't paid anything for the idea knot as I am a mac user, and the mac version is free. I have yet to see free mac software for writing that I really like, but I found avenir and really like it. It's created by a writer, and I don't mind forking over 20 dollars to another writer for all his work.

I don't even know if I would want to recommend software to people for writing, frankly. That's really personal. I think the only way to find writing software for yourself is to do the research and download the ones you can find for testing.

I have developed a rule about these; because they are explicitly not meant to go onto the stage, I write them from a different perspective than my stage text.

Hi, I followed a link from

voleuse. This is really interesting. I used to have a lot of trouble with developing my characters fully and doing the pre-writing/character-building stuff other people do. I say used to, but it's really something I'm improving on but still struggling with. I tend to want my characters to spring fully into being so I can just write what's already there instead of having the kind of scary responsibility of actually BUILDING the character like I do the plot. But I've found a couple things that have helped me to loosen up that part of my brain and write the exploratory stuff without the pressure of needing to write something "usable." One is to write things in second person, which I use for doing more specifics and details. And the other is to write things in a fairy tale format, starting with once upon a time and removing names and purposely keeping things at a distance and on a less detailed more metaphorical level, which I use for an overall grounding of each character's journey in the story. And I didn't really think so much about WHY doing those things made it easier for me, but I think it's what you said about them making it so explicitly not for "the stage." It kind of fools my mind into letting go and thinking...it's okay, there's no pressure, this is a separate, safe space.

Anyway...great post.

It's interesting how we really do need to give ourselves permission to do things sometimes. That's what I'm finding. It sounds like you've done something similar in creating a unique space with its own rules in order to do something that contributes to the main story, but not in a traditional way. I guess I started out thinking about this in terms of software (x goes here, y goes there), but really that's just another metaphorical construct for giving myself permission to do something.

I like this idea of different forms of storytelling helping to delineate the boundaries. And interesting that you pull the narrator back; is your "stage" story more up close and personal? As I said, I switch between third person limited (close, but not all that close to the main character) into first person, which feels FAR more intimate. My alt scenes have some really really personal narratives in them that don't show up in the "stage" text in so many words. But I can now see how valuable it is to do stuff like that. Sounds like you already knew that!

I've tried, I swear, I have bloody tried, to follow a special routine, to write an outline for my fics, especially if they are long. The thing with me, is that when I sit down and just think about where I want my story to go, what happens on page 5, how should my protoganist's initial reactions to certain situations be; I find myself unable to actually write the fic. I see the whole outline in front of me, I know what I want to do, my fingers are hovering over the keyboards, my Word doc is open, a blank page, waiting for me to type my first letter, word, sentence, paragraph, page, but it doesn't happen. I'm positive there is a logical reason for this reaction, for this blockage of writing, but I just can't seem to work well with outlines. I mean, I love making outlines. They're fun, they make you think, plot out reactions, personalities, scenes, romances, problems, etc. But it's when it gets down to actually writing down the words, intertwining them, making them into sentences and paragraphs, that is where I fail. Maybe that's why I am mostly familiar with writing one shots in fanfiction (Harry Potter). When it's a long story, with chapters, I know that I need to make an outline, because there's just too much happening, too much to say, too much to do. With one-shots, I have an idea, there is a simple beginning, middle, and end, I can write it down, there's no need for a lot of fleshing out of anything (when you think about it, there is, but this is if it's a long one-shot, and I haven't gotten to writing those as of yet).

Maybe it's because I'm spontanious. I love a mystery, I can live without knowing, I don't need to know. Maybe that's why I let my instinct lead me, why I let the ideas pour out as I type. Obviously I start out with a general idea, maybe a few specific scenes, but that's it. I don't know how I get from point A to point B. It's not preordained. Obviously that is what outlines or plotlines are for, but I just let the idea come to mind randomly. Sometimes it even comes to mind when I am least expencting it. I know of many writers that can sit down and think, think, think. I am not one of them (not saying you are either, lol). I also know there are a lot of writers that need to outline their work. Again, I'm not one of them, although I admit that I have done it before, with disasterous results. I instantly lose inspiration for the story. I have it all plotted out, why should I write it now? The idea is there, there's no need for words.

What I am wondering, and would appreciate your imput on, is, do you think stories with an outline are better than stories without an outline?

I would say it all depends on how the author cleans the story up when they are finished (if it has no outline). I know many writers, a few of my friends as well, just type it all out and then clean it up, etc. I'm too much of a perfectionist myself to do that. I may write one page or a scene, and then stop and re-read from the beginning and edit any mistakes, change words I don't like, clean out and re-order what I've written. It's a tedious progress, but I find myself settled down once I know that what I have written is perfect in my eyes, and then I continue. It's one of the reasons why I take so long to actually write a story, even if it's a short or long one-shot. Of course, this applies for outlined fics as well.

What I mean to ask, do you think, in your honest opinion, that there should be a solid, concrete rule for writing? I hear so many writers say that outlining is the key, and it is! I know it is, but in my opinion this applies for very long stories that have too much to tell, and most of the time have sub plots, etc. Do you think outlining should apply for one-shots?

And I know, I'm asking for too much opinion. lol...and wow, this reply has turned out to be quite long. Sorry for hogging! lol

Well, I never ever outlined a damn thing for fanfiction. Not long fics, not short fics, not anything. I think you have more leeway with fanfiction, quite honestly. Your audience already understands your characters, no matter how drastically you want to alter them. They already know the setting, and you only need to nudge a tiny bit to spin off in a new direction.

I didn't start outlining anything until I stopped writing fanfiction.

And I'm not recommending any kind of rules for writing. I hardly know what I'm doing myself, let alone presuming to dictate anything like rules.

All I can say, in my honest opinion, is that without an outline, all my original fiction was too distant, too navel-gazing, and too confused. I can't speak to anyone else's writing.

lol, yeah, well, me neither. I actually wrote original fiction before fanfiction and even then I couldn't outline the plot lines. But original works definetly need outlining. It's a completly different story plot.

Oh, I didn't mean to ask if you have a recs for rules on writing. I meant to ask if you think there should be one. I'm just curious to know what other writers think on that.

I agree. My original works were confusing as hell, and needed to be fleshed a lot more.

Oh, I didn't mean to ask if you have a recs for rules on writing. I meant to ask if you think there should be one. I'm just curious to know what other writers think on that.

This is sort of begging the question (though in reverse). You've explained that you have a different method, and then want to know if there should be one method (if I'm reading you right). I don't think you'll find any writer who would suggest we should all work the same way.

However, I don't think writing long works, particularly inside a genre with fairly strict conventions, comes naturally to many. Writing is a skill much like other skills, and has to be learned. There is a series of myths about writing that tell us that it's somehow the result of some kind of vague notion of "talent" and less just about organization and hard work. This myth serves us all very badly. Beyond that, I'm sure we all come up with our own methods, and those may or may not help us get to an end result we can live with.

ideaknot is in the process of totally revolutionizing the way i work on long pieces of fiction. thank you so so much for that link.

Oh good! I'm glad to hear it. I found it frankly scary at first, because I had all these individual, discrete ideas that didn't seem to match up in anyway. Also, they weren't in a concrete narrative form at all, and that was a bit weird for me. For about the first three or four weeks of using idea knot and adding tons of stuff to it, I had no idea if it was going to amount to anything at all. But when it came together, it really came together, so I'm a believer now.

Best of luck! Break a leg and all that!

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Four Spaces

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