OoTP: one more reaction

[ivyblossom]

Well, I've read a lot of divergent opinions on The Order of the Phoenix so far. A lot of people hated this book, apparently. Well, I did not hate it. Not at all. I felt while I was reading that for once this was really JKR talking to us, not her lawyers, not her publishers, not the PR machine, but JKR herself. That was a heady experience, after all the time I personally have invested in her universe. I giggled over Dudley asking Harry if Cedric was his boyfriend. It probably wasn't, but it felt like a shout out.

I felt as though she had been listening to our criticisms. First off, this book was far, far better written than any of the ones that came before it. It's still in the same general style, but she seems to be taking her own story more seriously...there are no more jokey people are plot points. This is serious, the irony is real when it's there, and the humour is beautiful.

"Both buttocks in place?"

One of the major problems with the series to date was the pitiful female characters. We had Hermione and that was about it. Well, no more. She gave us Luna, who I think is a stroke of brilliance. We needed 'the weird girl' anyway, and I think JKR finally decided to break out of the 'I will only write Gryffindors seriously' bubble she had been in. I love Luna. I can't quite see Harry/Luna, but I almost can. He is very comfortable with her, and I like that. I like Harry branching out and connecting with more people. McGonagall kicks ass. Umbridge is the most villainous villain ever. Her pink cardigans and her lacy office, her plates with kittens on them, the lines that cut into Harry's hand...brilliant, all brilliant. And she has a real motivation, unlike Voldemort of previous books. We never really understood why he did the horrible things he did. Umbridge we understand. She is worried about rebellion, she wants control, she feels righteous. It was beautiful. Hermione was still Hermione, but Ginny got a serious turn-around. I liked that. It made sense. She had a crush on Harry but it's over now. She's her own little person with her own talents. I am pleased, I liked her.

Tonks. Hey, we needed another lesbian in these books. And the shape-shifting is just damn cool.

Cho. I actually really liked the Cho parts. She managed to write that relationship totally not working without actually making Cho a complete idiot. At first I was like, why is Cho flirting with Harry when her boyfriend just died? But JKR didn't drop the ball there. Cho's doing it because she wants comfort, she thinks Harry is the only person who understands her. Of course she cries a lot, her boyfriend is dead and she's sixteen. And then they both just move on from each other, it works.

Harry/Ginny seems kinda dead, but I could still possibly see it in the future, at some point. More now than I could before. Ginny has to not be a fangirl to hook up seriously with Harry. But we'll see.

Molly Weasley. She is a very passionate woman. Passionate and bordering on abusive, if you ask me. But her presence is welcomed by me here. She's scared and she loves her children. Also, Harry.

Petunia. Oh Petunia. I was so thrilled with the first part of this book. Even the Dursleys aren't given short shrift here. They have become real people at last.

So characterwise I personally am very pleased with this book. I think she did a great job, worthy of, dare I say it, fanfiction.

Plotwise: I like the Umbridge bit, as I've said. It's not, excuse me for saying so, a stupid plot like CoS. It makes sense. The ending kind of lost me, though. I liked the idea that Harry's heroics really do bite him in the ass in the end, but I think it would have been cooler if no one around Harry heard that prophecy. Stupid prophecy though it was. Why Voldemort wanted it so badly is a mystery. Sirius's death didn't phase me at all. I hated Sirius in this book. He was moody and more immature than Draco (almost). I have a mean plot bunny for a dastardly and abusive Sirius/Harry where Sirius molests Harry and keeps calling him James. So I was actually very glad when he died. I don't want a guy like that being a father figure to Harry.

I really, really love Harry.

The ending was a bit disappointing. We didn't end with any real sense of victory, and we didn't get a normalizing scene there to show us how things proceed directly after all this. Dumbledore's story was too long and seemed more like JKR's apology to us for all the dumb plot tricks she's used in the past. The prophecy needs work. It should have actually been a weapon, it should have been something we can feel relieved that Harry kept away from Voldemort. But after all the heroics that stupidly worked for Harry, I'm glad to see him fuck up.

I liked that Dumbledore calls Voldemort "Tom".

All in all...great book. I didn't feel the stupid plot holes as I usually do, though I'm sure someone will point them out. We didn't have a series of locks that Harry and his friends miraculously break through in spite of being only 11. We don't have a giant snake slinking through the school that miraculously manages to never kill a single person. We don't have harebrained schemes. When Harry and his friends manage to defeat the Death Eaters it's because they've been practicing hard. Yes, this book is bleak. There were definitely points when I didn't want to be at Hogwarts anymore. But I felt that in GoF and PoA as well; Hogwarts has never been a totally wonderful place for Harry.

I disagree with what a lot of people are saying, that this book is about Harry turning on the system that has supported him. The system has never supported him. It has used him and abused him, it has pointed and laughed at him, it has made him feel like a freak. And by system I mean a) the general public, b) the government, c) the political (student) system at Hogwarts. There has only ever been one thing that supported Harry, and that would be, as we now know, The Order of the Phoenix. Dumbledore, McGonagall, Sirius, Remus, and the Weasleys. There is nothing else in Harry's world that has supported him, and nothing is different in this book on that score. What's new here is that Harry knows that he can't solve things by himself, that he can fuck up, and that things are very, very serious. This isn't a day trip, this isn't an outrageous journey and adventure he can come back from and curl up in his four poster bed. Nowhere is safe anymore, unless he makes it safe.

I would also like to point out that I am still very much an Harry/Draco shipper, and that Draco did nothing in OoTP that I would not have expected him to do. Except for bragging about writing poetry, perhaps. There are, actually, a few things I would have expected Draco to do that he didn't, but that just makes my ship feel more and more alive. More on the non-deadness of my ship later, this post is too long as it is. :)

Comments

[tropes.livejournal.com]

I love you very very much.

You have made me feel better.

Or perhaps I am just highly suggestible.

[ivyblossom.livejournal.com]

I love you too. As always. :) I think I just read this with regular sleep, I'm not nearly as devestated as the rest of the world. Though, I admit it's a bleak book. It just doesn't shatter me as it did others. I read the first 200 pages and then went to sleep, woke up, babysat my nephew, drew a lightning bolt on his forehead, took him to the bookstore, and then came home, had lunch, and finished reading. I think I finished at 10pm. Possibly reading this while totally exhausted makes it all feel that much more hopeless.

I'm going to take a shower and then write about why my OTP is alive and kicking. Hehehehe.

[avalons.livejournal.com]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought the prohecy was lame. That's one of the only things that really threw me.

The one other thing though that threw me and was never explained. How did Harry get the maurader's map back? Did I miss that somewhere?

[ivyblossom.livejournal.com]

There's that. Hmmm.

[stresskitten.livejournal.com]

OoTP seemed to imply that Draco was loyal to his father but afraid of Voldemort (that scene with Harry at the end, where Snape interrupts them). That leaves plenty of potential.

As for the "Hogwarts is no longer a refuge" thing, I saw that as part of Harry growing up. As with Buffy, I've always seen a lot of what goes on in Harry's life as extreme versions of what kids his age always go through, and now that he's almost sixteen, he's going to be looking at his protective authority figures and seeing their flaws, and being angry and resentful, and learning to see adults as real, complicated people rather than idealizing them, and all that stuff. I thought this book did a fantastic job of taking him onto all that adolescent territory.

[ivyblossom.livejournal.com]

I know nothing of Buffy, but I see what you mean, it is certainly a growing up thing. But Hogwarts was finally invaded and destroyed, the thing we were scared might happen before finally happened.

I think the upside is that Hogwarts really IS safe again now. There's no way they're going to question Dumbledore again any time soon, and Harry has the ministry's upmost respect. He's got a lot of responsibility on his shoulders at the moment, but I don't think the powers that be are going to ignore him again any time soon.

Except that Harry was wrong in the end. Oops.

[quitefrankly.livejournal.com]

Tonks. Hey, we needed another lesbian in these books. And the shape-shifting is just damn cool.

YES!! Everyone keeps touting that poor woman as a Mary-Sue (which, fine, maybe I can see) but good God, I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought: Yup, she's a lesbian and then grinned for a while.

[ivyblossom.livejournal.com]

*writes Ivy/Tonks*

[potterwitch.livejournal.com]

Tonks. Hey, we needed another lesbian in these books.

*blinkblink* Who's the first?

I don't think JK has killed thew H/G ship, far from it. The way i see it... well, I started reading it and saw how Ginny progressed from an eleven-year-old (because that's what she's been, books two through four. You don't notice her, she's away with her own group of friends, she doesn't develop past "the girl who got possessed by Voldemort") to a funny and mature teenager. I loved her telling Harry off for not talking to her about being possed when he was worried about it. The fact that Ginny was going out with other boys just... loosens her up, I think. Maybe she will start fancying Harry again, maybe Harry will start fancying her... there's definitely a lot there that could be filled in with fanfic, ways to go. It's only with this book I've actually started liking the idea of Harry/Ginny, which, I suppose, is rather ironic.

I agree about the teachers--I think there was a lot of development for everyone there. I keep thinking about McGonagall and the biscuits and her tartan tin. For the first time, I imagined her with a Scottish accent, and I liked what I heard.

The way I see it, OotP isn't the best book plot-wise, but it is the best characterisation-wise. It's just a shame one of the best characters had to die. *ponder* I wish it hadn't been Sirius. She could have done so much with him... then again, I was banking on Dumbledore dying and he's turned back into Book One Dumbledore--funnier and feistier than in two-three-four.

[all-ahoo.livejournal.com]

I think the "first lesbian" would be Madam Hooch :-) Love her.

[all-ahoo.livejournal.com]

Thank you SO much for writing this. I really enjoyed the book and I was pissed to see others slamming it. It was funny and quirky and *realistic* and well-written.

I also loved Luna. She was great. I liked the Cho parts too, but mostly I like that they're not together at the end of the book. I also liked the way Ginny developed. She's become a really great character

But...*sniffle*...I miss Sirius! A lot. I definitely didn't hate him in this book, I really felt bad for him. He's had a really shitty life and Harry is basically the only good thing he's got, but they were unable to communicate for much of the time and he just seemed very very lonely :-(

[ivyblossom.livejournal.com]

I just never forgave him for making Harry feel like shit over not being enough like his father to keep Sirius' interest. Mrrrr. My love for Harry overrides all.

[perclexed.livejournal.com]

I love your take on things Ivy, and fully agree with you about Sirius. In this book he gave me some seriously creepy vibes. But your view and mine match up pretty damn well, though you are, of course and as always, much more eloquent about expressing it. *G* Thank you!

[ivyblossom.livejournal.com]

*loves*

[coloredvision.livejournal.com]

Love your response. Let some of the air out of my "That was disapointing" bubble. I am much more satisfied with the book now.

Personally, I'm upset that Sirius died. But then, that killed my OTP, canon-wise. You are right, though, he was portrayed really badly. I knew he was going to die from early on because of his behavior. Sure, he was lonely and all, but he had Remus (They gave Harry a present together. And numerous other things. It's so canon!) and didn't need to accuse Harry of not being as cool as his father, basically. Of course, none of that kept me from going "Mr. Weasley can die! Dang. McGonagall can die! Phew. Ooh, all those people knocked unconscious at the end, one of them! Oh, dang."

I liked that Dumbledore calls Voldemort "Tom".
Yes.

*sighs* You write so convincingly. I feel better. Will try to finish my own LJ post now.

[it-rained.livejournal.com]

One thing I picked up on was Dobby putting up Christmas lights that looked like Harry in the DA room. Totally a stab at the merchandising. I liked that.

[ashkitty.livejournal.com]

I disagree with what a lot of people are saying, that this book is about Harry turning on the system that has supported him. The system has never supported him. It has used him and abused him, it has pointed and laughed at him, it has made him feel like a freak.

I agree with you. This is the first book where we've seen Harry as actually really being in control of anything, and really it's about time. So the first time he takes things into his own hands for real--without someone else pulling his strings--he fucks up. Big surprise.

Still makes me sad, though. And the one thing I disagreed with you on was Sirius. Actually I thought all the characters, while we saw more of their flaws, we also saw the reasons for them. I liked that.

[all-ahoo.livejournal.com]

Oh. God. LOVE your icon. *choke sniffle*

[alicey.livejournal.com]

Very good point you've made about the system turning on Harry- it has always been turned on him. Fudge = git.

[february-sea.livejournal.com]

Dear Ivy,

I am just so pleased to have read your comments; I can honestly say that I fully agree with nearly every single one of them, and the ones on which I am not in full agreement only make me more convinced that there are enough reasonable interpretations of minor points in this book to stand in favor of my contention that it is EASILY the best book so far, and that it may very well be the best of the seven. JKR will have to go some serious mileage to beat this one, as far as I'm concerned...Not that I'm not extremely willing to give her the opportunity, mind...

I think your observations are dead on, and those, combined with cygnusfap's exceedingly well done but slightly more philosophical point of view, might very well say all that needs to be said on the subject of OotP.

One teeny, tiny, brand-spanking new canon nitpick...Luna Lovegood (who I absolutely ADORE) is a Ravenclaw).

Between you and Cygnus, I think you've pretty much nailed it.

blessed be,
Olivia

Revisionist history

[smaragdgrun.livejournal.com]

There has only ever been one thing that supported Harry, and that would be, as we now know, The Order of the Phoenix. Dumbledore, McGonagall, Sirius, Remus, and the Weasleys. There is nothing else in Harry's world that has supported him, and nothing is different in this book on that score.

And that would include Snape. I know the H/D ship is in denial, but Snape does support Harry on a regular basis. Even through his own personal pain.

Though I still think Draco will be redeemed in Book 6.

Re: Revisionist history

[ivyblossom.livejournal.com]

The H/D ship is not in denial. The H/D ship is not a person, it's an idea.

I don't consider Snape particularly supportive, and I don't think Harry thinks so either. You'll note that I said The Order of the Pheonix, and yes, that therefore includes Snape. I feel no need to name him, since he does not deserve Harry's trust in this book.

Who stopped teaching Harry and allowed Voldemort to get to him? Who didn't explain about the department of mysteries and the danger Harry was in? Oops. That would be Snape. Right.

"I thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your father--I was wrong."

Snape let Dumbledore down too. I don't call that support, sorry. Snape is not one of the people Harry considers supportive, and not one of the people he will fight for. I await more canon before I would count Snape someone Harry can safely trust.

[practicallyfame.livejournal.com]

Writing and humour...

I agree... it was beautifully written, same basic manner of the first ones but I personally feel like it was written for older readers.

Luna...

BIG fan of Luna right here... some of the things she said, like how she remembered random things, was so me... I was like "cool! found myself in a character finally!"

McGonagall and Umbridge as the villan...

Oooh yeah, McGonagall's awesome. And Umbridge... not only did she annoy the hell out me because she was the perfect villian, she was soooo easy to hate it was so nice... but it was all about Harry speaking out against her... that was perfect... I mean, I've had teacher's I've stood up to and corrected on issues (usually in theology classes) but it was great to see Harry doing exactly what I would have done. :-)

Ginny becoming her own person...

Oh yes, and very very happy to see Hermione still in touch with Krum. Go them!

Tonks.

Yesssss... Tonks good. Kick arse, 'specially the appearance change

Cho.

I agree entirely.

Ginny has to not be a fangirl to hook up seriously with Harry. But we'll see.

Aye, Harry isn't going to go for anyone obsessed with him. Noticed Luna didn't seem to be entirely awe-struck with him which is one reason I suddenly started rooting for them... hee hee. What he needs is either someone just as famous as him (like that'd happen), or someone living under a rock who doesn't know and/or care that he's famous.

Molly Weasley.

Yeah, the boggart thing was soooo upsetting... I was like "Mum! Don't worry!" just cause she feels like a mother not just to the book characters but to everybody who needs a Mum.

Petunia. Oh Petunia. The Dursleys have become real people at last.

*Cheers and celebrates!*

So characterwise I personally am very pleased with this book.

Also, many more characters and they were developed... quite nice. I mean, we had the other schools in book 4, but this time we stayed at Hogwarts and met some of it's other occupants.

Stupid prophecy though it was. I hated Sirius in this book.

*sniffle*... I was hoping the prophecy would've had something to do with Slytherin heir vs. Gryffindor heir (cause I'm rooting for Harry being Gryffindor heir) but nothing... wah. And secondly... I LOVE SIRIUS. I mean, there was moody teenager-ness by the middle and end because hell, he'd been stuck in a house he hated full of bad memories for months... But WAH! I cried when he died. Because I loved him from the other books, and because I was planning a major fan fic with him... *sobs*

So I was actually very glad when he died. I don't want a guy like that being a father figure to Harry.

*sobs*

I really, really love Harry.

'Specially his outbursts against Umbridge. Good boy. He began to have real personality.

The ending was a bit disappointing. The prophecy needs work.

Yeah, major bummer and it didn't even end in a way where you can go "what's gonna happen next year at Hogwarts?" I have a feeling book 6 is gonna be the hardest for JKR to write...

I liked that Dumbledore calls Voldemort "Tom".

*Nods in appreciative approval that someone else noticed.*

All in all...great book. When Harry and his friends manage to defeat the Death Eaters it's because they've been practicing hard...

*applauds*

I disagree with what a lot of people are saying, that this book is about Harry turning on the system that has supported him. The system has never supported him.

Beautifully worded. The whole thing with the government being incompetant, the fickle attitude of the press, and the power of Umbridge being used against her (both McGonagall and Dumbledore's attitudes towards her, they were spectacular)... 'twas wonderful... also the fact that this is no longer quite as "fun" as it had been (though the humour in this book was sooooo much better...)

*Dagny

[valarltd.livejournal.com]

What. You. Said.

I don't see Molly as abusive. She does yell a lot, but you can head her off before she gets a full head of steam going. Never seen her beat one of the boys with a broomstick yet, and she always attacks the action, not the person doing it.

Tonks, so far everyone I've encountered likes her.
(My daughter really likes her.)

my little tirade...

[princess8911.livejournal.com]

I love your rant on OotP :) I personally wasn't happy with Sirius dying, but otherwise I agree with you.. even in the fact that Sirius was annoying and moody throughout the whole book.

There were two things that bothered me about the book The first being the two-way mirror thing Sirius gave Harry. It didn't really have any purpose other than to make Harry feel even more like an idiot about the mistakes he made, and make him rethink of all the things he could have done to save Sirius. That's how it came off to me anyway. And I didn't like Dumbledore's big long story about the prophecy and why he didn't tell Harry anything before then. Although it made Dumbledore a little more human and I LOVED how a single tear rolled down his face, the story itself was pretty lame and drawn out, plus the Neville thing was odd. But I'm glad all the little comments Dumbledore has made in past books were explained.

Neville rocked my socks in this book. I loved him. He was wonderful, and it finally made sense that he's in Gryffindor. I also have a new found love for the Weasley twins, and I'm SO glad Rowling finally gave me a valid reason to loathe Percy.

Overall, I'm glad J.K. actually wrote a book that was part of a SERIES... I felt like it was the first time reading the books before it paid off. Bravo J.K.

That's enough for me today. I'm glad I came across your journal! :-D

thought regarding prophecy

[ex-peregrina383.livejournal.com]

Greetings. I floated by and read your review, which I really like and agree with. The ending did feel like a let down, and the prophecy, quite frankly, seems a little absurd. However, I had a random thought; the prophecy, as we see it reported, is via Dumbledore's pensieve. However, when Harry finishes seeing it, the memory doesn't abruptly stop, Trelawney just floats around and swirls back down into the pensieve. Considering how manipulative Dumbledore can be, and how selectively he gives out information, I wouldn't be surprised if there was something else Trelawney reported. Also, Dumbledore skips over explaining how Voldemort could suddenly touch Harry at the end of Goblet of Fire and his 'look of triumph' -- more with-held information. Of course, I could be over-extrapolating, and I'm going to stop blathering in your journal now....

[delirieuse.livejournal.com]

I agree wholeheartedly. I did not enjoy this book, but I thought it was the best. Once I have some emotional distance from it, and can wrest my copy back from my sister, I plan on reading it again.

I agreed with you about Sirius for the first half of the book, but his death completely tore me apart in the second half. Not sure why. Should probably read it again...

[heinous_bitca.livejournal.com]

*loves*

[thierrys.livejournal.com]

Like most others, I totally agree with you, except for that part about Sirius. Really, he wasn't that old when he was sent to Azkaban, and he'd been pretty immature as a kid (shown by the pensieve) and it's not as if he could really mature in Azkaban or get out and develop socially afterwards. I felt really sorry for him--especially what with dying for Harry's stupidity (sorry if that's a bit harsh). On the bright side, this is the first book where I felt Harry had a personality other than "what? everyone thinks i'm great?" or "how annoying, everyone thinks i'm great." the scene when he first earns detention in dada was terrific. i'll stop blathering; reading your review made me feel a lot better :)

[primroseburrows.livejournal.com]

Ivy, if you don't know buffy, you'll have to have someone explain this, but your comment cries out:

We didn't end with any real sense of victory, and we didn't get a normalizing scene there to show us how things proceed directly after all this

And the Buffyesque response is, "the battle's done, and we kinda won, but we walk alone in fear...where do we go from here"?

Brilliant story. Best ever. I am in terrible, awful, awsome, head-over-heels love with Harry as I never have been before.

[phineasjones.livejournal.com]

So I was actually very glad when he died. I don't want a guy like that being a father figure to Harry.

harsh. too harsh. r/s is my otp. of all time. reading this was a bit of a slap in the face. though of course we're all entitled to our opinions and yadda yadda. just like sirius is entitled to be a many-sided, imperfect character.

[ivyblossom.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry hon, I didn't mean to hurt you. S/R is certainly well-supported in canon. And yes, Sirius can be, and is, a many-sided and imperfect character, with lots of potential in canon and in fanon. I would never argue that he is not an interesting character, I am just responding from a place of deep and abiding Harry love to the exclusion of pretty much all other characters.

*loves*

I have nothing against your OTP. I support it fully and completely. I'm just over here in the corner being worried about Harry. Sorry about that.

*loves more*

From Haretsu

[(Anonymous)]

First of all, I want to thank you for the explanation why H/D is not dead. I just finished the book and your explanation made me feel a lot better. I think you've been told this before, but you're genious.
I think I'm just gonna forget what happened to Sirius in the book and what was he like. I'm going to live in my own little fluffy world where Siri is the coolest guy ever and very much alive. And dating Remus or Sevvie. Mostly Remus.
When I first time read about Luna I thought: "she's just like some kind of OC or Mary Sue!"
I still think like that. I agree with many people who think OotP is like a huge fanfic.
I hate Umbridge. And Cho. Ginny's character has developed so I don't hate her anymore. I truly didn't want to know what James was like. I feel like I'm betrayed or something.

[shakespearechic.livejournal.com]

Excellent review, and pretty much sums up most of my reaction. I was sad at Sirius' death though, but that was more for Harry and the Sirius' of the books past...

*still drooling over Dumbledore calling Voldeomort Tom - TWICE*

[pervy-elf.livejournal.com]

Sirius's death didn't phase me at all. I hated Sirius in this book. He was moody and more immature than Draco (almost).

I was beginning to think i was the only person who wasn't all that affected by Sirius' death. Sulky git that he was. I think I was more upset for Harry's sake than anything else.