Just for the record.

[ivyblossom]

I just wanted to state for the record that I personally believe quite strongly that pedophilia is unethical, immoral, and wrong. Much love out to all the folks on my friendslist and beyond who've suffered because of it in the past (and present), and particular love out to those who've been following certain debates wherein pedophilia is defended as a positive thing. This is happening within fandom and outside it, and I just wanted to voice my own personal opinion on the issue.

If you have a problem with me thinking pedophilia is wrong, please feel free to unfriend me.

Comments

[citizenjess.livejournal.com]

Jesus Christ, is this what the vague winds of another fandom-wide flame war are about?

[ivyblossom.livejournal.com]

Oh, I don't know if it's a fandom-wide flame war. I just wanted to be very clear about this. I saw a couple of things and I wanted to say something. So I did.

[fiendling.livejournal.com]

do you mean all the debates about chan? I haven't seen anyone defending it as a positive thing but just as... something.

[ivyblossom.livejournal.com]

Oh I've seen it. It makes me ill and I thought I'd say so. I mean, I'm not seeing TONS of it, but I've seen it around, and yo. Not cool.

[1anonymous1.livejournal.com]

There are people around here that like pedophilia?


*shudders*

[longtimegone]

I agree.

[emerald-ibis.livejournal.com]

It confuses and frightens me that there are people in the world who would defend it as a positive thing. It makes my heart absolutely sick to hear it.

[(Anonymous)]

i'm glad.
(posting anonymously here)

::nods:: some people who were abused have said that it's helped them understand that it's not ok to be treated like that, any i've seen (and i usually avoid chan like the plague), use it as a plot device to horrify readers, or as a kink, and it's just _not funny_ to anyone who has been in those kind of situations. it's happened in my family and i just don't think people understand the damage that it does. it's a sensitive issue, and shouldn't be treated with the carelessness that it usually is in fanfics and elsewhere.

[ivyblossom.livejournal.com]

Agreed. I'm not commenting on chan, but I want to be clear about the real life stuff and it disturbs me to see certain things getting normalized...not just in fandom, but outside it too. I support people writing whatever they want to write, but I'm disturbed when people go so far as to say that pedophilia is okay in real life.

All I can do is express my opinion on the issue, so that's what I opted to do.

*hugs*

I'm sorry that your family has had direct experience. All my love.

[little-needle.livejournal.com]

No problem at all. Everyone has their views, Ivy. =)

[adinasauce.livejournal.com]

Thank you, Ivy, I was thinking the same thing too.

And much kudos to you for taking a certain someone up on a certain disgusting question to even ask. Those were my very first thoughts to her post. *salutes*

Nodding

[changeling7.livejournal.com]

Fear of pedophilia kept me away from delving into the HP fandom for a long, long time. It scares me to see chan becoming more prevalent here, almost like everyone's worst fears about HP slashers are coming true. I'm glad to see one you taking a stand on the issue. Your opinion carries a lot of weight in the fandom.

[kimberlydawn.livejournal.com]

fucking sickos.

[ashkitty.livejournal.com]

You've already heard what I think, so. *hugs*

(And if anyone else doesn't, they can always ask.)

[darkflame173.livejournal.com]

Hmm.
I guess I will go ahead and comment here, and if you wish to unfriend me, feel free to do so and I will not be offended.
I run a chan list. However, that does not mean that I feel that pedophilia is right at all. It just means I run a fiction list that deals with chan fics. I do believe that pedophilia is morally and legally wrong, and would never be a good thing under any circumstances.
That being said, my chanfic list is a Harry Potter list, and as such is about fictional characters. I would never sanction fiction written as though it were about real people under those circumstances. But the fics that are posted on my list are just that, fiction with fictional characters.
I guess I relate it to rapefic. I believe that rape is also wrong, but it doesn't bother me that there are rapefics out there. I don't make anyone read material like that if it bothers them or if they are offended by such situations. As it is, my list is closed and unlisted, and only members 18 and over who understand what the list is about are allowed. But it's certainly not something that I would ever force someone to read.
I'm sure I'll get hell for this, but I refuse to post anonymously.
I'm not sure who would defend pedophilia, as the writers on my list have said themselves that though they write fictional chan, they do not support pedophilia, and understand that reality and fiction are two completely different worlds.

[ashkitty.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure who would defend pedophilia, as the writers on my list have said themselves that though they write fictional chan, they do not support pedophilia, and understand that reality and fiction are two completely different worlds.

Well, somebody did. It was creepy. I mean, all of it squicks the hell out of me anyway, you know that, but when the line blurs from "I write this in fiction" to "real children have a sexuality," I go from 'squicked and won't read the fic' to 'severely bothered.'

[lagreyeyes.livejournal.com]

Pedophilia is a horrible, horrible thing. It absolutely destroys people. There is no possible way that it could be defended.

I agree with you completely.

[sheron]

Complete agreement.

[katrionaa.livejournal.com]

I totally and completely agree.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm glad someone said something because I was really disturbed. And it has nothing to do with chan. I'm not comfortable with fic that depicts children under 15 in sexual acts, but I'm not judgemental about it. It's out of my comfort zone, so I don't read it. My real life friends would be pretty freaked out if they knew I read HP slash, so I don't feel like I'm in a place to say anything to anybody else. There are people around here who are into chan and who seem like really nice people, and I honestly don't believe they go around lusting after children in real life.

But, some of the people commenting in this particular LJ discussion went beyond defending chan. It seemed to me like they were defending the idea of adults having sex with children on the grounds that children were sexual creatures, and society has just conditioned us to feel ashamed of that. Maybe I misunderstood. All I know is that reading it just made me feel kind of dirty.

[ivyblossom.livejournal.com]

Thanks for your comment.

I also am deeply disturbed that adults having sex with children is condoned anywhere, and I'm concerned about the arguments being used. Mostly because I know there are lots of people in fandom for whom those arguments would be hurtful, alienating, and possibly even distructive, and I wouldn't want anyone to think that all or most people in this particular fandom think that way.

I really have not much to say about chan. This isn't a post about chan. I have written all kinds of wacky and troublesome things myself, and I wouldn't feel comfortable telling people what they should and should not write. But I do want to voice my personal opinion on this matter when I see pedophilic arguments being used to justify behaviour in and out of fandom.

[pieslut.livejournal.com]

This is why fandom occasionally scares the bejesus out of me. When fantasy crosses the line to reality, seriously bad shit can happen. And that's not ok. Not ok. Not ok.

[cleverthylacine]

Okay, Ivy:

According the DSM IV, a pedophile is:

"A. Over a period of at least 6 months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 years or younger).

B. The person has acted on these urges, or the sexual urges or fantasies cause marked distress or interpersonal difficulty.

C. The person is at least age 16 years and at least 5 years older than the child or children in Criterion A.

Note: Do not include an individual in late adolescence involved in an ongoing sexual relationship with a 12- or 13-year-old."

No, I don't have a problem with you, or anyone else, thinking that this is wrong (or sick).

Why would I?

Now, there are lots of other things that get thrown under the umbrella label "chanslash" that I don't think are so terribly wrong--like stuff that kids do with other kids, or stuff that teenagers do. And non-consensual behavior is wrong regardless of age.

I don't think that everything my characters do is morally right; but I probably think that more of what my characters do is morally right than the average person does. I tend not to write non-con; I tend not to write about characters under 12-13 (11 is the youngest, and that was with another somewhat older kid); I tend also to write about cultures that are recognizably not our own.

However, I am failing to grok how there could be a debate as to whether RL pedophilia, as described above, could be wrong.

The confused Azalais...

[(Anonymous)]

There was. Someone mentioned an encounter where they were basically molested at age 11 by an older person, who worked in their town, and another person suggested it was only societal norms and brainwashing that caused them to later think they didn't enjoy it. That's when things took a turn for the decidedly uncomfortable; it's not really about chanfic but reality then.

[debellatrix.livejournal.com]

debates wherein pedophilia is defended as a positive thing.
This is very worrisome. I know that we joke about The Bad Place and have icons making fun of the fact that people outside the fandom think we truly crush on minors. But this kind of conversation, taking place in a public forum, that can be construed as condoned by the majority, is extremely dangerous. I can understand intellectual discourse over cultural mores, but those should always be in very controlled situations. And, I haven't read the debates yet.
But just to be clear: pedophilia - eew.

[longtimegone]

But just to be clear: pedophilia - eew

You are so concise. <333333

And w0rd to everything else you said.

[cosmic.livejournal.com]

Jesus. That's just-- EWW. How can someone think that pedophilia ISN'T wrong?

[tempestus.livejournal.com]

I couldn't agree with you more. I can understand why some would be upset that we even joke about it, but true pedophilia is just 'ewww.'

BTW, I have friended your journal, alsoivy, and I will friend this one when I get the chance.

[epistretes.livejournal.com]

Ok, I have nothing against chan. I just want to state that right from the off.

I myself was abused at the age of 10, by my biological father. There is a marked difference between reality and fiction or fandoms and I think people who try to blur the lines need to step back and seriously look at what they are saying.

Those who defend RL paedophilia? My life was almost destroyed by what repeatedly happened to me. I dont need to go into the details but Im sure you cant even imagine a tiny portion of what I was feeling unless you yourself went through it. Those who defend people like my good-for-nothing father (who incidentally, got off with the charges and lives a free man while Im still tortured by things that happened to me) need to seriously sort their heads out. These people are sick.

I deliberatly posted as me as I dont want people to dismiss my experiences as me not having the guts to come forward. What happened happened, dont encourage it to happen to someone else, I was almost destroyed. It may destroy the next poor child who suffers it.

[ivyblossom.livejournal.com]

*hugs*

What worries me most is that someone with less strength than you have would look at these arguments and think that maybe they were asking for it, or maybe somehow they wanted this abuse they got as children. I'm all for intellectual freedom but I can't sit back on this and not say anything.

Thanks for jumping in. Your comments are very valuable.

*hugs more*

[tocomfortyou.livejournal.com]

These arguments don't even make sense. They say over and over again that it's okay if the child isn't "forced into it", if they find it "enjoyable". A lot of children want to drive a car and would find the process enjoyable, does that mean we give a 9 year old the keys?

I do remember my childhood, and I do believe children are sexual creatures, but there is a difference between sexual and wanting to have sex.

I thought the entire basis of morality was knowing that what you could do isn't necessarily what you should do.

[ivyblossom.livejournal.com]

I'm sort of wondering how they feel about sharing arguments with people who have sex with their dogs.

[epistretes.livejournal.com]

I could agree with you more, Ivy.

People who have suffered in this way need to know its not their fault and to come forward, encourageing or even simple condoning of paedophilia will hinder this.

I remeber being 12 and seeing a bus drive past with a banner advertisement that said

"1 in every 8 children will suffer molestation in their lives"

and its stuck with me (im now 21) this is awful and just think of how many people you kniw, divide it by 8. Scared? You should be.

[ivyblossom.livejournal.com]

I think it's more like 1 in 4, to be honest with you. It's a high, high stat and incest is so much more common than most people think, that's for sure. I just looked at this stuff and I see it getting more attention and I just don't want to be in a fandom that doesn't speak out against this kind of rationale.

[ladylisse.livejournal.com]

Admittedly I'm disturbed by a lot of things, but I can't imagine a context where it would be defensible, much less positive. Gyah. NO.

And in a fandom context it just squicks me like nothing else. The kids in chan fics and stuff like that are my baby sister's age or younger, and seeing stuff like that makes my overprotective sibling instincts kick into overdrive. It's just...yech.

[ivyblossom.livejournal.com]

I think I squick easier than anyone in this fandom, really. Most things squick me and I've tried to keep that to myself. I know everyone has their own thing and that's cool and everything, but I don't like the idea of pedophilic ideas seeping in and becoming part of our fandom-speak. We all like memes. This is one I wanted to counter quickly if I could.